Thanks for the post. I would love a follow-up post that engages theologians like Aquinas and Augustine on the topic of creatio ex nihilo. Since the tradition/Bible distinction didn’t really get going until the Reformation, I worry when this distinction is hauled out against the long consensus of pre-Reformation theologians. Augustine and Aquinas certainly never thought they were doing anything other than interpreting Scripture. And Lord knows Augustine knew his Scripture! I doubt there’s ever been a text more suffused with biblical citations and allusions than his Confessions, and who else comes to mind who preached five huge volumes of sermons on the Psalms alone? To put the concern differently, I doubt very seriously that one can both affirm that the doctrine has tradition on its side and deny that the doctrine has any strong basis in Scripture.

Also, it would be interesting to see you reflect on the work of particular contemporary interpreters of the doctrine. I have in mind first and foremost the late Dominican theologian Herbert McCabe (see esp. his “God Matters”, and there esp. part one), but also Rowan Williams (see scattered reflections in “On Christian Theology”). In these contemporary theologians’ work, I think you’ll find a position that evades many, perhaps all, of the difficulties you enumerated in your post.

Tom:

Thanks for inviting me to comment. I hope to be constructive. While I share some of your concern over the Biblical and philosophical arguments for creatio ex nihilo, I don’t share your reasoning:

1. What do you do with the possibility that, while beyond our conception, absolute nothingness may have actually been? Our conception doesn’t limit historical reality, does it?

2. You’re committing the genetic fallacy: rejecting an idea on the basis of its origin, rather than on its merits alone.

3. To the contrary: there’s plenty of evidence, even if much of it is theoretical and philosophical. Scientists and theologians agree that the universe had a beginning…so, prior to it existing, it had to not exist.

4. First, what kind of evidence would you expect to find if something WERE created out of nothing? Second, you’re not answering the question, but pushing it further back. Is the universe eternal, or did it come to be at some point?

5. Power is the ability to do work. There’s no implication in the word that a social component is required…it appears you’re imposing your own meaning on the word.

6. Let’s turn this around for clarity: you seem to be saying that because clear revelation doesn’t exist (your words, not mine), God lacks the ability to create from nothing? Non sequitur.

7. I agree with the general principle that a powerful God would be responsible for not preventing evil (if culpable, I’m not sure to whom He would report)...but your presumption is that God would not allow evil at all. Without more evidence, I’m not sure we can draw such a conclusion. Non sequitur.

8. On what basis do you reject this idea…is it because you don’t like it, or because you have evidence that it’s incorrect?

9. On this we agree.

I’d like to add another point of contention. Let’s suppose for a moment that God DID indeed simply order the existing chaos at the beginning of our universe. You seem to be suggesting that this is evidence that God COULD NOT create from nothing. It’s not. If I take a vacation to Seattle, that doesn’t mean that I couldn’t have just as easily gone to Phoenix…does it? What God DID is not necessarily an indication of the extent of His ABILITY.

I don’t mean to be harsh or unnecessarily argumentative, Tom. I look forward to hearing more from you, especially in response to the kinds of questions I’ve raised above. I’m not done learning, and I’m sure you have much to teach me. =)

Tom,

I look forward to your forthcoming essay. You may address my concern in it, so feel free to say “just wait”, but if we say God created out of something doesn’t that require that something to be eternal as He is eternal? What are you willing to say is eternal with Him other than Himself?

I have a feeling you gave a glimpse of your answer in the title of the next essay but I still wanted to ask. Thanks,

-Dan

My main question, then, is more a theological one, Tom: Was there a time when all there was was God?  Some Jewish commentaries of Gen. 1:1 understand it to be something like this: “Before there was anything else, there was God; then God spoke.”  This, of course, is an “ex nihilo” account.  However, what about the ancient creedal statements regarding “before there was anything, there was God.”  I believe one can affirm the idea of a God who precedes all other things without a specific ex nihilo reading of Gen. 1; however, I don’t see you addressing that question, and I’d like your take on it.

Finally (for here), the two statements that address the problems with a God who is able to create ex nihilo yet doesn’t stop evil are not convincing to me.  What about the Trinitarian model of a God who is perfect community who wishes to take a risk to reproduce this perfect community by creating?  The risks involved CAN (and do for many) address the problem of evil while still positing a God with the power to create ex nihilo.  Again, I like many of your comments, but I don’t see these two things addressed, and they are historically significant concerns.  Blessings! ~ Charles

Tom, as usual your thoughts are cogent and worth pondering.

I wonder if there is a middle ground between the extremes of creatio ex nihilo and creation from chaos. My problems with creation from chaos, as I understand the idea, is:
-Chaos seems to become the default reality. Chaos is the natural state of all things. This seems to suggest that we are not ultimately the creation of God but are God’s ordering of a chaotic primordial state or substance. We are, most basically, chaos given order.

-This also seems to smack of dualism. If God is in an eternal “battle” with chaos, how is this different from other forms of dualism in which God eternally battles evil in one form or another?

-While I think the problem of evil’s origin may be solved with creation out of chaos… the problem of evil’s exodus is glaring!

I wont offer my underdeveloped theory here but I think there is a third way in which we can see God as creator in the fullest sense and yet still affirm that chaos is a necessary element of the creation.

OK Tom,

Let’s say after 10 years your starting to win me over on this one.

let’s say to summarize some key points of your of your argument (maybe some previous discussions we have had on the same subject mixed in)

God is by nature both relational and creative.

If he created out pre existant matter, He would have had to created the pre existant matter which he created from pre existant matter and so on creating a sort of ‘creation loop’

where i get lost is humanity and as we know it is relatively young even by the longest estimates.

My current understanding of God’s nature is so relational that i have trouble with the notion that God would have created over and over again with out also creating community/love capable live prior to us.

then my mind starts really spinning could heaven already be populated?

maybe it sounds crazy but it seems the natural next step

If not creation ex nihilo, then creation from what?  If ordering of chaos, from whence cometh the chaos? 

Also, regarding the power of God over against the power of evil, you seem to imply that God must not be able to overcome the power of evil—otherwise, God is culpable for not doing such.  Are you suggesting that there is some other—some power—outside of God that limit’s God’s power?

Please forgive my spelling everyone.

Man it must have been torture reading my papers in my pre- secretary years

Hi Tom,

I only recently started following the blog and I’m lovin’ it! Thank You.

I love theology.

(Okay, love is a strong word there but my D.S. may read this blog and I’ll take the brownie points whenever I can get ‘em – Go Yankees!)

That being said, in order to cling to my passion for theology I need it to translate into action and real life so here’s my question.

What does all this do for Meth Addicts?

I tell our people everyday that by fully submitting to God’s loving strength they can conquer Meth, which tends to be just one particularly nasty bit of chaos in their lives. Sadly, more often than not they fail that battle. 

Are we saying God is limited in dealing with chaos in general, or is he only limited when dealing with pre-creation chaos? If those limits exist at all are they self-imposed by God, which would seemingly only make him stronger, or is he unable to fully remove chaos?

(Yikes, that has the potential to mess with traditional Naz theology.)

Sorry if I stepped outside of the scope of the post. Thanks again.

Grace and Peace, Dan

Tom, I think we are so trapped in our limited, finite, physical thinking that we do not/cannot understand God. He is spiritual. He exists in a different state of being. We have no way of understanding Him outside of His explanations of of Himself expressed in our finite language, with our physical terms, and concepts. That is one reason why Jesus is so important to us.

I think it is absurd for us to make speculations about the spiritual realm unless we can form them from what He has told us. The word “nothing” has no meaning in the spiritual. What was created just did not exist before. It is that simple. Romans 4:17, and Hebrew 11:3 gives us a little insight to God’s perspective.

The whole world has a physical picture of God, including the old philosophers, which we seem to revere, but the spiritual and physical are completely different states of being. Contemporary Christian theology has not corrected that either. God is just the big man upstairs. The spiritual is beyond our comprehension. We need to understand that part, at least, and let His word help us understand Him and His heart toward His creation.

Jack

Charles,
The position that “before there was anything, there was God”, reminds me of the mystical Jewish concept (picked up by Moltmann) called zimsum. This is the idea before there was anything, there was God, which means that in order for something non-God (something finite) to exist, God would have to withdrawn unto God’s self, making room for the finite. While this is a very sophisticated position, it does not help us with two key issues: theodicy, and “out of nothing comes nothing” (ex nihil, nihil fit).

Lori,
I appreciate your questions - “If ordering of chaos, from whence cometh the chaos?” In response to your question, I pose a parallel question “If creation/ordering by God, from whence cometh God?” In both cases, God and chaos have no beginnings. The same logic/faith that is applied to a God with no beginning, is the same logic/faith that is applied to a chaos with no beginning.

Tom, you are raising some good critiques of the tradition that I believe do need to be addressed.  I think we need to examine further some of the unintended implications of traditional ways of speaking about creation.  Like many who have already posted, I do not agree with all of your critiques.  Also, Charlie Collier mentioned a few contemporary theologians whose articulations of the doctrine are not guilty of many if any of your critiques.  In my own dissertation I too tried to develop a language for talking about creation out of nothing that avoids your critiques.  I welcome anyone’s thoughts on whether I was successful or not.  See “Using ‘Chaos’ in Articulating the Relationship of God and Creation in God’s Creative Activity” at http://epublications.marquette.edu/dissertations_mu/5/

I enjoyed reading this blog. The idea of creatio ex nihilo raises questions in my mind as to why, if God is all powerful and did create the universe from nothing did he create evil and other negative factors? Does God allow calamity to grow perseverance? Also, where did God come from if nothing was there? In my personal faith I strongly believe that God is all powerful and all knowing, but I now question in a sense creation, because of the arguments posted.

Good stuff! I eagerly await your alternative.

As theists, problem one seems to remain an insurmountable problem. If we accept the idea of an eternal/infinite God then absolute nothingness is very much impossible to conceive.

Reguarding the question of creation out of what, that many have already raised, I am guessing that we may see an alternative that proposes that God has created out of Himself, maybe God created out His nature, will, desire, or even His Love.

Y’all,

Thanks for your helpful comments!  I’m posting my follow-up blog, which has my alternative theory.  Your comments helped me fine-tune my arguments.  Thanks!

Tom

Hey, TJ,

I responded to and linked to your post on creation ex nihilo. You brought up some very good points.

Rod
http://politicaljesus.com/

Creatio Ex Nihilo:  “No Problem”

To believe that God created the heavens, the earth, and every living thing is an act of faith.  We have no proof that God created it, we only know that it exists.  Whether God created this world   from absolutely nothing or by organizing chaos is of little consequence.  But to accept the idea that God created the universe yet limit our belief in His creating ability to what we can explain or understand is absurd.  How can you so easily accept the notion that God can create all the intricacies of this world only if it is prefaced with the idea that it was created out of something?  Christians should not reject the idea that God created the universe from absolutely nothing…unless His Word rejects the idea.  But this would seem to place the authority of God’s Word above man’s wisdom.  Can we do that?  Well, Proverbs 3:5 says “Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding.”  It would seem that God wants us to trust Him, by trusting in His Word.

Now we are getting to the crux of all the questions being raised.  Can we trust a God who allows evil in this world when He could have created a world without evil?  Or was He just powerful enough to set this world in motion but is powerless to control it?  The implication seems to be that God is either responsible for evil or not powerful enough to stop it.  Maybe it is because He gave us all free choice to either choose Him or allow the consequences of sin to be carried out.  If He created us to glorify Him, to honor, love and serve Him it would mean very little to Him if we couldn’t choose an alternative.  That alternative is separation from God, sin, evil, and it has consequences.  If we ignore the law of gravity and get hurt should we blame God?  Maybe He should have made us with bodies that can’t be broken, not susceptible to disease and able to live forever.  Oh, yea, He does have a plan for that…for those who trust in Him and His Word.

How do we know if any part of God’s Word is true?  Considering the assets and liabilities of a Biblical concept is the wrong approach.  Truth is not proven on the basis of its assets and liabilities.  It is not based on what feels right or what the majority considers to be Truth.  What is True is True even if not one person believes it to be True.  What about all those miracles?  Should we consider the assets and liabilities of them to decide if they were real or fictitious?  How could we prove them?

The real problem is how we view God’s Word.  Once you start doubting God’s Word and deny that it is inerrant, where do you draw the line?  Do you draw the line at the “creation story”, the “virgin birth”,  the “miracles”, or maybe the “resurrection”?  Once you decide that you can not trust God’s Word is in fact God’s words, you end up with man trying to dissect and prove each and every aspect of the Bible through man’s infinite wisdom and deciding what to keep and what to throw out.  Oh, but then you would have to throw out that whole Proverbs verse above.  I am not that smart so I tend to just believe God’s Word is His Word and it is inerrant.  Now I can learn about God by reading His Word.  I don’t have to guess which parts to believe, I can safely believe it all.  If it says God created…then He did, period. 

Colossians 2:8

But doesn’t scriptures say that God spoke and then there was his creation? Doesn’t that imply that there was nothing before God spoke?

Also, I don’t quite see how your 9 reasons are so solid that you don’t have any more evidence for it. I would be interested to see more support for the statements.

@Wm. Andrew Schwartz

You say “...whence cometh God?”  For those who view God as non-temporal, this is not an issue.  I think the problem of “How did God create out of nothing?” stems from the perception of God as pan-temporal.  Maybe this presupposition is wrong?  Those who view time as part of creation are more easily able to explain creation from nothing.  I admit, it still has difficulties with an all-powerful God allowing genuine evil.  However, this seems to me to be an almost separate, distinct, issue.

I have a hard time grasping the concept that the world came from nothing as well. But I do think that this is just one of those things that we will not know or understand until God allows us to know. I do think that something must have been here first though. It is hard when you believe what the Bible says, but somethings are contradicting. Like I said though, when God is ready to let us know, he will.

Genesis 1:1 tells us what God did. The rest of the chapter gives some details on the order in which He did it. The text does not tell us that God created the primordial waters. The narrative begins with the Spirit of God hovering over them. God then begins His acts of creation, or bringing order out of chaos. Creation ex nihilo may be true, but that’s not what this story is about. In any case, the essay above could open the door to somewhat of a panentheistic view of God—i.e., the cosmos is IN God, even if that means the “energies” as opposed to the essence of God(to borrow from the Eastern fathers). Thus, the primordial waters are not so much the waters of chaos as a metaphor for the divine energies from which an ordered cosmos evolved.

The fundamental fallacy above, is that you assume that being exists beyond God. This has the consequence of making God a part of the natural order as opposed to above and outside of the natural order.

If you conceive of God as being ontologically beyond nature, then your issues are solved.

To understand this most basic and crucial starting point in theology one should consult Van Til “defense of the faith”

The Problems you list about Creatio Ex Nihilo are fair and I agree with them. That being said, I find that it is difficult to think of a creation theory that best explains the creation of the earth. All of them seem to have major faults or places where they can be argued against so it leaves me wondering if there can ever be a plausible theory of creation. While it may take a very long time to develop, I think it can be done but it will not be accepted by most people because most people are firmly rooted in their beliefs.

Lovely, catalytic piece, Thomas Jay Oord. Thanks for it. Have you ever done the promised follow-up post? If so what is its title?
Shalom~
dh

“5 Solitary Problem: Creatio ex nihilo assumes that a powerful God once acted alone. But power is a social concept only meaningful in relation to others.”

But Thomas, you are missing so many other aspects that derive from the same point.

If God was alone… then there was no such thing as “good” because good has no meaning unless compared to “evil”. God was not “holy” because there was no such thing as “unholy”. There is no such thing as mercy, because there was nobody to be merciful to.

In a way, you can argue that God (in this scenario) was not God.

Furthermore, God would have no reason to create in the Ex Nihilo scenario, because existence was perfect.  Simply by creating ... God “downgraded” existence.

I reject that.  I believe that God IMPROVES on existence by creating/organizing chaos or creating from some kind of infinite potential that is outside and apart from God.

The way to deal with this question is easy, just take into account 2 things:

1. Pose ANY alternative to ex nihilo, and carry it out to it’s logical end. You’ll see that alternative is ultimately nonsensical and illogical.

2. Don’t subject the Father God Himself to material, naturalistic attributes and confines - Scripture doesn’t allow for it.

For example, God is not merely “older than we are” - God is the very source of the physical property known as time, He crafted it and rules outside and over time itself.

God is Spirit, and is not what we call “complex”(as if he were made of smaller materials and systems), He is the originating principal behind matter and complexity itself.

“All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. John 1:3” - All things. “pre-existing material” would still be a thing, so it’s just deferring your problem.